00:00:00 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
It's Tuesday.

00:00:02 - Caitlin Kindred
Extra excited today. We are so glad you're here today. We have a surprise guest today, but before we introduce her, obviously we need to introduce each other. Let's do this.

00:00:13 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Okay, so with me today is Caitlin, who we could call the new deal, because while she is not the cure for a great depression, she definitely helps you fix it.

00:00:24 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Oh, I like that.

00:00:26 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Everybody loves a little FDR humor, right?

00:00:28 - Caitlin Kindred
Who doesn't love a little FDR humor? Speaking my language. Honestly, the history teacher in me is like, oh, my goodness. Okay, well, I can't top that. So we're just gonna go with my usual awkward Leslie, no introduction. That's Jenny, my perfect rule breaking moth.

00:00:49 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I have been a moth before.

00:00:51 - Caitlin Kindred
You have been a moth before. I don't know if you were a rule breaking les or maybe you were like a glowing sun chestnut haired something something. I don't know. Oh, it's just so awkward. Okay, we're honored. You hear another voice in the background? That would be the voice of Megan DeVito, who's the host of the More Than Anxiety podcast. Megan, thank you so much for being here with us today. Hopefully we can laugh a little bit as we do this.

00:01:17 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I feel like I just fell into a dream scenario here, so just go on with yourselves. This is good.

00:01:23 - Caitlin Kindred
We are often cutting through some factual stuff or fact adjacent stuff with laughter just makes everything better. So we're thrilled that you're here. We're going to be talking about a lot of stuff in the mental health space, which is where you focus your podcast, obviously with a title called More Than Anxiety. So before we really get into that, I'd love to hear about your podcast and how you got started in this coaching space that you're in.

00:01:49 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah. So my podcast really is. I'd like to say that it was like, about all of the things like you are more than anxiety and make it really, like sweet and loving. But it was really because I like to talk about all kinds of things. So more than anxiety. Like we're gonna talk about more than anxiety. But no.

00:02:07 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Sounds uplifting, but it really is just.

00:02:09 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
A label about the show. That's right. Like, yes, you are more than anxiety and Right. Or right. Like I love all of those things, but I really do. I talk, I speak specifically mostly to women who are handling like, really big emotions, whether it's from like overwhelming stress or overworking and things like that that build up to anxiety. And really because I had an anxiety disorder for 30 years. So I just take a lot of my experience in my Own life and then kind of moving through that process myself, getting to a place where I'm like, oh, wait, I feel really good. I felt really good for a while. I get my coaching certifications and so I just take like a lot of my personal experience and stack up those coaching certifications. And I have a background in teaching, which is really fun because I also used to be a history and government teacher. So you got me with the fdr.

00:03:03 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yay.

00:03:04 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
That was super fun. Yeah. So I have a lot of teaching experience. I was a teacher for on and off. Like, I took little breaks in the middle sometimes, but on and off for about 15, 20 years and then moved into coaching, kind of transition out of the classroom. And now I do. I help women who have really big goals and dreams where their minds and their bodies just sabotage them and keep them from being able to move forward.

00:03:31 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Awesome. Well, thanks for doing that work.

00:03:34 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah.

00:03:35 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Okay, so how do you get these kind of certifications? What kind of training is involved in that?

00:03:40 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Coaching certification? Yeah, yeah. So there's lots I'd love to say there's this really prestigious school that you go to, but there are lots of different ways to get coaching certifications. Lots of really great programs online. I got mine. I started out as a health coach and I did health coaching while I was still teaching. So I got my health coaching certifications and I happened to sign up through a program that took the foundations of coaching and offered a health coaching certification. And then you could also get a life coaching certification with some additional hours. So I got both certifications in health and life. Yeah. So you go on, you take the courses. It took probably, okay, eight to nine months of that. Lots of practicum.

00:04:23 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I was just gonna say, I have to imagine more than just taking a class. There's got to be hands on practice.

00:04:30 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah, absolutely. Like we had to do a bunch of hours of coaching other people who were in the courses.

00:04:34 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Right.

00:04:35 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
And log those hours on those things. So, yeah, lots of practicum that comes with it too. And then voila.

00:04:41 - Caitlin Kindred
Love it.

00:04:42 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Awesome.

00:04:43 - Caitlin Kindred
So I have to say, I love the overall message of empowering ambitious women to overcome stress, anxiety, be able to build resilience in achieving the goals that they have. And I. The word ambitious really stuck out to me. I just listened to the episode about what it means to be ambitious and thinking about that cycle of comparison that goes along with it. Comparison and ambition and how that kind of leads to that overwhelm that you've. That you really work so hard to help women deal with. Can you give me, slash our listeners, some tips for handling all of these, because that's a big issue, right? Like, it is.

00:05:29 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I think when it first dawned on me that I had a thing, I had a. I had a hiccup with the word ambitious. I wanted to use it because in, like, the people who I was thinking about, like, these are the people who I love. Like, they're ready to go after it. They want to dig in. And I started feeling like, oh, that word feels kind of like, gross. Almost like the Devil Wears Prada, you know, where you're, like, ambitious. I'm not sure ever. There's like, I'm afraid people are going to look at that and think, oh, I don't qualify. And then I started looking at it again and saying, well, ambitious doesn't necessarily mean I'm looking to, you know, like, take over Microsoft someday. It's really just like, I have this goal and I'm. I'm really ready to work for it. And so being able to. Right. Blonde ambition. Yeah.

00:06:22 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Caitlin is dying. She's like, jen is so old.

00:06:25 - Caitlin Kindred
No, I'm dying because she. I got the joke immediately, but so did Big, and it's the greatest. I knew exactly.

00:06:32 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
No, I'm. Wait a second. I'm like an 80s kid. So. Yeah.

00:06:37 - Caitlin Kindred
Goodness, I love it.

00:06:38 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah. No, I was like, yes, Blond ambition. But no, but we do, like, I think you can hear that word and be like, oh, well, when I look at so and so over there, they're the ambitious one because they're doing this and, you know, whatever the crap that people say to themselves, whether it's like, I'm just a. I'm just a this or just that, right? I'm just a stay at home mom. I'm just this digest word. We're just immediately disqualifying ourselves, right? And so I think being able to say, no, no, no, whatever it is that you want that's ambitious enough. Like, that is ambition. And maybe you just want to be able to hang out and watch movie with your kid and not feel like you're crawling out of your skin. And that's amazing, right? Or maybe it really is that you want to try to take over Microsoft. I don't know. Whatever that is for you, good enough for me. I mean, it's really about what people want and knowing that whatever they want is good. And that's. That's ambition. If you're ready to go for it, you've got it.

00:07:31 - Caitlin Kindred
The word just I've tried to remove from my vocabulary, especially when it Comes to work because I am disqualifying the things I'm saying where I say like, oh, just checking in here, just making sure you like as opposed to, I'm confirming that you have done xyz, right? Like it's a, it's a qualifier word that, that ruins things. But also, you're right that when you look at someone else's ambition as opposed to yours, it really does just completely flatten any desire to work towards a goal because you just feel like yours isn't important enough. Even though it matters to you, it's not important enough to, you know what the rest of the world, whatever it might be. Right. I love that Devil wears Prada reference too. Because you're right that that sort of gave this like, toxic view of like, ambitious women in particular, right? Oh, so gross. Yuck.

00:08:19 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah. And so we turn into this little just mouse, right? Like when I say just, I'm like, sorry, I don't want to bother you or anything. I'm just checking in and I'm like, wait a minute. No, I need an answer.

00:08:30 - Caitlin Kindred
That makes a lot of sense. Do you have any, like, practical tips for what can I do to myself when I start getting into that comparison space? Like, what's something that I can say to myself or write down or an action I can take that might help me shift my mindset?

00:08:46 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I always go back into how you feel in your body. Like if you notice that you feel like you're curling into yourself or you're shrinking. And it takes practice. We like to get stamp in our heads where we can get out of it. Like, try and think our way out of a problem. But if you feel yourself curling in, there's a part of your brain that's just not working. And if we talk about what happens, whether you're anxious or you're stressed out, when you get into that, whether it's low level fight or flight, or it's like, I am about to go off the anxiety cliff, that frontal lobe doesn't work. So when you're in that place where it's like, oh, I can tell that I'm starting to feel that resistance, or I'm starting to feel like I should just hide, just recognize that that's just your brain trying to keep you safe. So as soon as you notice that you're in that place where, oh, I feel pretty anxious, you are not allowed to believe anything in your brain at that moment because it's all fear based.

00:09:41 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Okay, so why is it that as a parent, I can recognize this in My kids. But I'm still working toward recognizing it in myself.

00:09:51 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
If you look at what's really going on in your body, and I swear to you, this is the thing that changed my entire life. It was just this one thought. I remember I'm walking, listening to this book, and there's a quote in the book. It's like, worry is wishing for what you don't want. And I'm like, well, who would do that? And I'm like, oh, me? Me. I would do that. I am the one that would do that.

00:10:12 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, my gosh. My God. Worry is wishing for.

00:10:17 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Is wishing for what you don't want.

00:10:21 - Caitlin Kindred
All right, well, that's incredible, because I just had an epiphany. Excuse me. While I just, like, I'm about to.

00:10:27 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Get that tattooed across my forehead, but backwards, right?

00:10:32 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
It's just wishing for what you don't want. But the problem is, is that your body sabotages you, and it does it from a very caveman.

00:10:40 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Right? Lizard brain.

00:10:40 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Lizard brain kind of place, right? It's totally lizard brain. I always picture the dad in the movie.

00:10:44 - Caitlin Kindred
The. Oh, yeah.

00:10:45 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Oh, yeah.

00:10:47 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
You know, he's always, like, throwing everybody back in the cave. He's like, don't go near the edge. Don't touch the little kitty. Don't.

00:10:52 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Right?

00:10:53 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
You know, everybody's gonna die all the time. That's just anxiety. And all it's doing is throwing you back in the cave. Even though we know what we're thinking, there's a really small part of us that probably realizes that it's probably not true. It's not likely we override it when thinking. Like, we can't out think it because that part of your brain literally shuts off.

00:11:15 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
So even if you say it out loud, it still feels true.

00:11:19 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
It feels true. And it's all this default system to keep you safe. Except for it's garbage, right? I mean, it's total garbage. Right? So you see it in your kids, and you can recognize it because.

00:11:31 - Caitlin Kindred
Right. Your brain is working.

00:11:32 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yes, your brain is working, but as soon as you feel it, all games off. I'm not allowed to believe anything that's going on up there right now because I feel this.

00:11:39 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
It is the appendix of thinking. It is just left over evolutionarily, and we do not need it.

00:11:44 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Oh, oh, the appendix of thinking. That's.

00:11:47 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah, write that one down. Right.

00:11:49 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Biology teacher.

00:11:50 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I'm gonna have a whole episode called you'd the appendix in your brain.

00:11:55 - Caitlin Kindred
Here's how. They're the same, right?

00:11:58 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Doctors are gonna be like, don't listen.

00:12:00 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Don't listen to anything. You cannot get an appendectomy of the brain.

00:12:04 - Caitlin Kindred
I believe they call that a lobotomy.

00:12:06 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Maybe.

00:12:07 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
But.

00:12:07 - Caitlin Kindred
But.

00:12:08 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
But what do they. In the lobotomy, what are they cutting out? Oh, the frontal lobe, the thinking part. The thinking part.

00:12:16 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah.

00:12:18 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Let's take out the thinking part. We need to push to the thinking part and live there.

00:12:23 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah.

00:12:23 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
So that's why lobotomy is like a punishment.

00:12:26 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, man.

00:12:27 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Because we take away the human part of you and just let you live.

00:12:30 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
In the lizard brain, which is a terrible place.

00:12:34 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
So if you're going to have an appendectomy of the brain, we need to be able to figure out how we can move past that lizard, place right into the frontal lobe, but not remove it, because it also helps keep you alive.

00:12:46 - Caitlin Kindred
This has been medical talk with Megan.

00:12:51 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I know. Like, and now I'm like.

00:12:55 - Caitlin Kindred
I'm just. It's so hard because.

00:12:59 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Oh, my neurology experiences.

00:13:02 - Caitlin Kindred
I am good. I. I get stuck in this cycle about thinking about the thinking, too, right? Where I'm like, okay, I am. I am anxious. I don't need to be anxious. Oh, now I'm mad at myself, because.

00:13:13 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I'm mad at myself for being anxious.

00:13:15 - Caitlin Kindred
It's just this vicious cycle. And so, like, I mean, you might actually have to physically remove yourself from whatever that thing is in front of you that put you there. And I am fortunate that I have adhd, which means I can compartmentalize pretty much anything. So if you put another task in front of me or, you know, something shiny, I'll probably get distracted by it. And that's the only way that my brain really escapes that worry place is a different task, a different something in front of me. And you have talked about these feelings with adhd. You described getting a late diagnosis of this for yourself. I imagine it was just as validating for you to get a diagnosis as it was for me. What works for a neurotypical person does not work for someone who is neurodivergent. And when ADHD and anxiety overlap so much, is there a special trick that you've used for yourself to kind of move you out of that crazy lizard brain space and put you back.

00:14:10 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah, it's that idea of. I mean, when you talk about metacognition, you talk about, I'm thinking about what I'm thinking. I guess my thought on that is always, if feeling anxious in your body doesn't make you anxious, does it even matter? Because really, what it is really what it is, it's only a chemical reaction, right? I mean, it's adrenaline, it's cortisol, it's doing its thing, it's making your heart beat. But it's what you think about that feeling that's the problem. So in terms of, I mean, when we look at something like ADHD and anxiety, and I'm certainly not a therapist or a doctor, although today I feel like one.

00:14:45 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
If it's like we all became neurobiologists today, we invented a whole part of.

00:14:49 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
The brain, brain surgery in them. Yeah. Yes. We just didn't even know. So when you talk about ADHD and anxiety. So from my experience, mine is, I didn't go to a psychiatrist. I honestly just went to my GP and was like, this is what's up Here are the things that are happening my life. I can't. I can't edit a podcast episode. It takes me four hours because I start and suddenly I'm on target and then I'm on Amazon and then I'm cleaning the toilet and. But I still haven't done this thing. Like, I just can't do it. So that was mine. And it's interesting to me, like, from my perspective, my anxiety for so long, even as a kid was wrapped around my health. And for most people, what I understand, for people who I have dealt with ADHD as a kid also, it tends to be more. Is it like, for you? I mean, I'm just like, out of curiosity, what were your anxious thoughts?

00:15:44 - Caitlin Kindred
Mine were always that, like, it was socially, it was social related. So, like, just how come other people are having this and I. I don't seem to get it or how come, like, there's something different about me that is not going on here. And also just this feeling of this is probably why it doesn't get recognized in girls as much as it should. But being. Doing well academically was a big issue for me, which is why I was so frustrated by things like how come everybody else can finish their assignment and I can literally cannot read? Not because I can't read, but because I cannot focus on this book for more than two minutes. And unless I'm taking diligent notes, which makes it take four hours to read three pages. Like, what? And this is still why I struggle with reading in particular, because it's not. My attention span is just not there. And I didn't know that I had this issue until, one, my son was diagnosed, because it's got to come from somewhere, right? But two, as a teacher, your life is so Regimented. Here is when you teach this class and this class and this class. Here is when you can go to the bathroom. Here is when you eat. Here is the time of day that you get to make your copies, and then you go home. And it's the same structure every day. And I noticed that when my. When I left the classroom, even those days where, like, we would have a pep rally or whatever, my anxiety would be higher those days, but because there was so much routine in my life as a teacher, and then I started working from home. That was when I was like, I can't do anything. Why can't I read? Why can't I do a task? Like, and then I would get anxious and overwhelmed by that. Right. And it's taken a lot of time for me to say to my bosses, please do not give me instructions orally. Like, you can tell me all the things you want done, but then I need you to put it in a message. And then I need you to understand that if I see all of it at once, this big list of things, I will get immediately overwhelmed by it, and I will say, I can't do it. So just. It's. I mean, that's really. It came from, like, how my. My anxiety came from, like, how come other people can do this thing and I cannot do it? What is going on here? So that validating piece for me, you know, it made a big difference when I did get a diagnosis. But it does come back to that piece of comparison that you're talking about. Right. Like, it's.

00:18:20 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
It was.

00:18:21 - Caitlin Kindred
Now you're a therapist. Just so. Just so you know, you've become a therapist.

00:18:26 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
But that's not. But I.

00:18:28 - Caitlin Kindred
There's a lot of. There's a lot of anxiety that comes with that ADHD piece. And I think that that's a big deal for some of our listeners who have related to the fact that we. We are ADHD people in general.

00:18:40 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Absolutely. And I think it comes down to the word should, and you're just shooting all over yourself. It's really just like. Right. I mean, that's all it is. It's. It's like, I should be able to do it the way this kid over here does it. And I should be able to follow the schedule, and I should be able to do it in this order, and I should be able to do that. But I wonder what would happen if you were able to say, pick something that has your interest right now and then say, okay, I'm going to focus on that, because that definitely has my interest. I mean, with all the love for the education system and coming. I mean, with the three of us actually spending time in the education system and knowing what it's like, I think it's safe to say it's not serving kids the way they need to be served right now. Especially with kids who have technology brains. We know they have popcorn brain. We know that they've got, like, their attention spans are so much shorter. Their brains are going so much faster. And we are working in a system that was created by guys back when we were coming up with, like, the beginning of the assembly line.

00:19:39 - Caitlin Kindred
Yes.

00:19:40 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Like, what can we do to make these kids efficient? Well, that was great, but those kids in the past just failed and went on and did something else. And now everything has changed so much. But our. And our brains have also changed. But when we look at what we think we should be doing, it's not necessarily that our brains are failing us. It's that our brains are being forced into something that they don't fit into. Right. And so when we say something like neurodivergent, it always just makes me wonder, but who's typical? Like, what is typical? We don't even know. Like, to say that I'm typical. Like, I'm not typical. I mean, my brain is quirky as all get out. It turns out that absorbing everyone else's feelings and taking in all of those feelings and feel responsible for them, that's an ADHD thing. But that is what that is.

00:20:28 - Caitlin Kindred
That is exactly what I do. I had no. That's. I feel responsible for everyone's emotions all the time. And. And I have to tell myself, like, this is not about you. Your husband is stressed about work. This is not about you. You didn't do anything wrong. And I mean, not that, like, in a diva kind of way. Like, way to go, Caitlin. You made the story by yourself, right?

00:20:49 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
It's.

00:20:49 - Caitlin Kindred
It's more like. It's.

00:20:51 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Give yourself a break.

00:20:52 - Caitlin Kindred
You didn't do anything wrong. Stop acting like you did. Stop being afraid like you did. And that's. That was that anxiety piece of that. That's a very interesting point, but there's so much of that. I think moms are wired to do that anyway, right? Like, moms are wired. Once you become a mom, you. You internalize everyone's feelings even more because you are responsible for a human.

00:21:12 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
But it's so much bigger than that, isn't it? Because I told you guys before we started that I've been trying to get tickets to the ERAS tour all week, so I Watched it live on. I watched it live on YouTube on this horrible, grainy video. And this has been a problem. I joked with my daughter about this the other day, that when I go to a concert, if I feel like people aren't cheering and giving the person performing and like, enough.

00:21:34 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah.

00:21:34 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Shazam. Oh, my God. It's like. It is. I'm like, but, but. But you need to cheer louder because she came to Indianapolis. Why are you not louder? Like, I was like, I hope Indianapolis is doing a good enough job.

00:21:48 - Caitlin Kindred
She's never gonna come back here again. What are you guys doing? You're watching it on TV and you're cheering.

00:21:57 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I'm watching it, but inside I'm like, I'm not watching her, though. I'm watching the crowd. I'm like, stand up. Get up there and cheer louder.

00:22:03 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I mean, that's amazing.

00:22:04 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
That's how bad it is. But that is. That is how it was for me. So, really, I mean, I hope, to answer your question, it's so personal in how we do it, but it all comes back to what we think we should be doing, right? I should be able to do this task in sequence. Why? Yeah, who said I should be able to do this? But really, if we really look, I mean, if we had the flexibility and the capability, and I realize this is a big stretch for society, but if we had that ability to say, this is what my brain is so good at. Because ADHD brains are so good at a lot of things. We just think we're supposed to fit into this box that somebody created for us.

00:22:41 - Caitlin Kindred
That's really interesting.

00:22:43 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I've looked at some of your work and really interested in how you compare normal anxiety versus anxiety disorder. Talk more to us about that. Like, how do we recognize in ourselves what is healthy to feel versus, like, what we might need some more support processing.

00:23:00 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
That's a good question. And I think that we have these trendy words that are all over the Internet. Oh, my anxiety is so bad. And I'm like, oh, okay, well, what happened? Someone, like, rear ended me in the parking lot today. I'm like, yeah, that's normal.

00:23:14 - Caitlin Kindred
Like, that's a blood pressure swing, right?

00:23:16 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
That's normal. Yeah, right. Like, yeah, good. I mean. Or I wasn't paying attention and I lost my kid in the store. I was so anxious. It's awful. I'm like, yeah, you should be right. And that's one of those things where, like, that is a normal response to stress. And it's kind of like, if we go back to high school, health Class and we talk about there's good stress and there's bad stress. People will tell you any stress at this point, we have such a low tolerance for anything that's uncomfortable that we think immediately something's wrong just because it's uncomfortable. But uncomfortable moves us forward. I mean, we would never grow if we were never uncomfortable.

00:23:51 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
This is so true. We're seeing it with kids because they would much rather send a hard message via text rather than be face to face and like have to deal with the reaction of the other person. Right. It is uncomfortable to see someone saddened or angry or frustrated when you say something. But that's how society moves forward is that you learn these skills by practicing them face to face, person to person. This is so interesting. Okay, go on. So that's normal.

00:24:21 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah. So right. Normal feeling. Right. You're going to be stressed and if you stay stressed for a long time, you're going to feel anxious because that stress builds up and you get a lot of cortisol in your body and then you feel it, which is that thing that we have to pay attention to. So then your brain starts making up stories about what could possibly be wrong. And if your brain is a little bit. And it's always based on your greatest weakness that you think you see in yourself, right? Like or some old hidden trauma, like if you think were one time somebody told you that you weren't the fastest runner on the team or something like that and suddenly you feel like everyone's looking at you. Whenever you do anything to see if you're good enough, you're going to get end up with some kind of weird story about who you are or if you know, whatever, however your anxiety started or whatever that deep flaw you feel or this deep responsibility you feel, your brain is just going to make up stories about it when you feel anxious so that it can try to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Right. So when you have that instant anxiety, when we talk about the difference between what like normal anxiety and an anxiety disorder. Normal anxiety is the kind where you lose your kid in the store or you fail the test and you gotta go home and give your mom the paper. The other kind, when you look at an anxiety disorder, that's the kind that goes on for a really long time. Like I'm talking weeks or months or in my case like a really long time where it'll go away for a little bit, but it comes back and there's not an extenuating circumstance that's keeping it there. It's not Enough. There's nothing going on that's causing it. There's no abuse. There's not neglect. There's not all of these things that we're like, obviously, this person is living through a lot of stuff where it's like, nothing's happening, but I just have developed this really weird relationship with the world around me. But specifically, that I think we're starting to understand is that it's really like, I have such a disconnect and such an intolerance to discomfort that my brain just would make up story after story about how I was like, I have some horrible disease, and it wouldn't go away. It would be weeks and weeks of me having panic attacks or anxiety attacks and not being able to say, oh, that situation is over. Right.

00:26:36 - Caitlin Kindred
It's the fix. Okay.

00:26:36 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
So that's what it was for me. That's when I knew that I needed something more. I had anxiety about situations that had already resolved positively.

00:26:48 - Caitlin Kindred
Me, too.

00:26:49 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
It was already done.

00:26:50 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah.

00:26:50 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
It was already fixed.

00:26:51 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Everything.

00:26:52 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
But my body could not stop reacting to it.

00:26:55 - Caitlin Kindred
Yes.

00:26:56 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
That's breaking down, crying in the closet over something that already was fine.

00:27:02 - Caitlin Kindred
Right.

00:27:03 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
And I knew it was fine. And I had said out loud that it was fine, but my body could not stop. Yeah.

00:27:11 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
So what was your brain telling you when your body felt that way?

00:27:14 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Oh, I was like. Caitlin had said I had feelings about my feelings. I'm like, why are you still upset? Why can you not move on? This is already over.

00:27:23 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah.

00:27:24 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
And that's when I said, okay, I think I need more. And I found a really great doctor who offered me some really great support. But it was. It was one of those things. I was like, okay, this is not normal. Like, the mom is fine. The kid is fine. Everything is over. Why are you still upset?

00:27:40 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they do. I mean, I. We have all these, like. I think sometimes especially, we think, like, trauma is like, you know, it's like death. It's like major abuse. It's like that. But we can have micro traumas all the time. We all have them because. Because we're alive. And part of that is how we learn. And I think that I don't want to put, like, a sunshiny little package over trauma, because it's trauma. But we do hold those in there, and you can almost feel it. Like, you'll see. Like, if you can picture a guy that was, like, in a war, right? And he starts talking about the war, and suddenly he's like, right shoulder. There's a.

00:28:15 - Caitlin Kindred
It's because there's a physical shoulder with.

00:28:17 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Something or, you know, there's a physical thing where you can tell like, where they'll start doing something. And you can tell, like, oh, there's a memory. And we talk about muscle memory all the time, specifically in sports. I coached swim for a long time. I'm like, just teach your muscles how to do it and then stop thinking about it. But that's great for sports. Not so great when their memory is that one time a kid called you a poo poo head or something like that, and then you're like, yeah, I'm horrible.

00:28:44 - Caitlin Kindred
And it's stuck in there, right?

00:28:46 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah, they're all these emotions. They just get knotted up and trapped in there.

00:28:50 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, man, that's. It's a lot.

00:28:53 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
It's a lot, you guys.

00:28:54 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
It is a lot, right? So if we want to learn a lot more, what can our listeners do?

00:29:02 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah, if you want to learn a lot more, I mean, tell us about what you offer information all over the Internet, right? Like, the Internet is full of information. I would just say that, like, you can read it a million times, but until you're willing to sit in it and to really work through it, you. It's kind of like reading a mode, like an inspirational quote and you're like, oh, that was nice. And then you move on. So what I do is I work with people one on one and we do a lot of just getting used to that feeling in your body and knowing specifically how your body responds so that we can create like an exit ramp. So instead of going from like body to mind to body to mind, so it gets bigger and bigger, we just like exit stage right and get out of there. And then we start looking at, like, what are you actually thinking when you feel anxious? Let's start looking a little bit at what's going on there. What would you rather think? And then we collect evidence. So, but really just like trying to build confidence and resilience and things like that through coaching. So I work with people one on one and just help them work through those feelings as much as the thought. So it's all personal coaching and just being able to help them get whatever their ambition is right back to that ambition idea. Like, what do you actually want to experience and help them?

00:30:19 - Caitlin Kindred
That's great. And I mean, we'll obviously we'll have links to everything that you provide. Where's your favorite preferred social network and people reach or see more from you?

00:30:30 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
The most Instagram or LinkedIn, either one. I'll send you both of those links. So if you're More like the LinkedIn type or you just don't have time for some of the fluff that happens on Instagram, you can find me there or on LinkedIn, but on Instagram or on any social network, I am coach Megan DeVito. All one word. And my DMs are always open. People are welcome to message me. I do free consultations and they can say help or I just wonder what coaching even is. Either way, there's no.

00:30:56 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah, I love that. And. And if you would like to learn more about. She does have a podcast again. It's called the More Than Anxiety podcast. And you can find her@Megandevito.com. um, we will have all those links again in the notes for this episode. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back with the fun stuff. For links to resources mentioned in this episode, head on over to ckngkpodcast.com blog to find everything you need. And be sure to follow us on social media. Head over to your favorite social media network and find us at CKNGK Podcast. And now back to the show.

00:31:32 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Okay, we are back with Megan DeVito, and it is time for us to sit crisscross on the rug. Tell stories. It's circle times. Okay, first, we are sharing what we are obsessed with. And, y'all, it is friends, Fringe and Company for me.

00:31:48 - Caitlin Kindred
What is that?

00:31:49 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
This is a clothing company out of New Orleans where everything is either covered in glitter or fringe.

00:31:56 - Caitlin Kindred
Stop.

00:32:00 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
It's amazing, y'all.

00:32:02 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, dear.

00:32:03 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Check out Fringe & Co. On Instagram or fringe-co.com and go wild with the glitter.

00:32:12 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, dear. Oh, my gosh. This is amazing. Mine is not at all sparkles, but I'm. I'm less of a sparkle. Girl, you're the sparkle. I'm. I'm the plaid. Like, just give me. Like, I'm. I'm far more neutrals and basics, but mine is motion. Have you guys heard of motion before? Motion is a, like, calendaring sort of app, but you can import tasks into it and it will motion. Like, as in, I'm moving motion.

00:32:48 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Notion also is a tool, but this is motion.

00:32:52 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah, I like notion.

00:32:52 - Caitlin Kindred
Motion.

00:32:53 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Motion. Okay.

00:32:54 - Caitlin Kindred
And it will take your tasks and put them onto your calendar so that you make time to work on them. Yeah, okay. I was like, this is kind of amazing. It does have some, like, integrations with, like, productivity services, like, you know, Monday.com or asana or whatever. It does not integrate with the one that my company uses. So I had to go into Zapier. And make a connection. Connection. Which is just fine. But it will take my tasks and put them on my calendar so that I'm like, oh, that one thing that is going to take you eight hours to do. But it's due on Friday and today's Tuesday. Okay. I'm going to give you two hours a day to work on this so that it gets done. Yeah. It breaks it apart. It chunks it for you. Yes. You can tell it like minimum chunk, one hour, minimum chunk, 15 minutes. Like, you can do all those things, too.

00:33:44 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Oh, my gosh. It should be called forward motion or.

00:33:47 - Caitlin Kindred
The get right short done stuff. The. You know what I mean, like get things done thing. It's great. I love it. It's good.

00:33:56 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah. You may have solved your ADHD anxiety problem with this.

00:34:00 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Maybe it's the new deal of anxiety.

00:34:05 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
It is.

00:34:09 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Maybe if Caitlin's over here building Hoover Dam.

00:34:13 - Caitlin Kindred
Here I am, you guys. I'm so productive. So productive.

00:34:20 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Oh, there's some niche humor.

00:34:22 - Caitlin Kindred
It's great. Okay, do you have one? Megan, do you have a thing that you're like super into right now besides the ERAS tour?

00:34:28 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Okay, I could be obsessed with this, but I don't want to get political, but I was going to tell you that the things that I actually am obsessed with right now are the ERAS tour and probably the election, which are so lame. But I can't help it. It's kind of like the whole idea of the New deal for me. Right. Like, I have things. But I do have a friendship bracelet on that I bought from this cute, adorable girl who lives in California who makes these bracelets and she has some specifically to support a candidate.

00:34:58 - Caitlin Kindred
Okay.

00:34:58 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
And when you buy them, she took.

00:35:01 - Caitlin Kindred
All of her profit and donated the campaign. That is cool. That is.

00:35:07 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
But it's a little. But she, but her. Actually, her business is called Speak Now Friendship Bracelets, and she just makes Taylor Swift bracelets. And you can buy one that says like.

00:35:16 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Right, you're right.

00:35:17 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
A lyric or something on it. Right. But this one, I bought one of these for myself and my daughter, the girl who I have been trying to get tickets for Indianapolis for my 22 year old who just does not understand how she could not go see Taylor Swing Sing 22.

00:35:33 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
So the world is about to end.

00:35:35 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
So.

00:35:35 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah, I. I understand it.

00:35:37 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
It's. It's a big deal. Yeah. So, no, really, I feel like my life has been wrapped up in a lot of taking in information and trying to buy tickets, which is not near as much fun as sparkly captains and managing Myself. But on that note, I have been using notion, but now I feel like I need notion and motion.

00:35:58 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah, you might. Yeah.

00:36:00 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
And maybe, like a potion.

00:36:01 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I wonder if I can make them.

00:36:03 - Caitlin Kindred
I think you can make them talk. I think that that's a thing. I think you can. Yeah, I think you can.

00:36:08 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Really?

00:36:09 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah.

00:36:09 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Okay.

00:36:10 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Okay.

00:36:10 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I don't know, like. Yeah, I don't have any great obsessions. I feel like my one obsession probably needs to calm down. Luckily, that'll be over on Tuesday.

00:36:17 - Caitlin Kindred
Okay.

00:36:17 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Let me tell you this about a Taylor Swift's obsession. My daughter has been in one for, like, the last seven years. I think a couple of weeks is fine.

00:36:28 - Caitlin Kindred
You're okay if it's not long, you know? Yeah. You're good?

00:36:31 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I'm good.

00:36:32 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Abby just turned 13.

00:36:33 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
We'll be fine.

00:36:34 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Last month and she.

00:36:35 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
When she turned right, she got into it.

00:36:38 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
When she turned six, we did who knows? Abby best trivia at her birthday party. And her favorite song at that point was Bad Blood.

00:36:47 - Caitlin Kindred
Wow.

00:36:49 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
So God bless her. So we have been on this train for a while. It is okay.

00:36:54 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
We've been on it, too, because that. My daughter, who's 22, her first concert was the 1989.

00:37:00 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, wow. Oh, that's cool.

00:37:01 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
So ever since then, I set myself up for this years ago, and it's fine.

00:37:05 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah. Caitlin, what was your first concert?

00:37:09 - Caitlin Kindred
The Goo Goo Dolls and Sugar Ray.

00:37:13 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Nice. Nice.

00:37:14 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah. Google dogs and sugar.

00:37:15 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
And when I asked this question is, like, what is the first concert that, like, you chose?

00:37:19 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Oh, yeah.

00:37:19 - Caitlin Kindred
No, that. I was 14 and the goo Goo Dolls and Sugar were touring together and my music taste hasn't.

00:37:30 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah, yeah.

00:37:32 - Caitlin Kindred
There you go.

00:37:33 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Megan, what about you?

00:37:34 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
New Kids on the Block.

00:37:36 - Caitlin Kindred
That's a good one.

00:37:38 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
That is the right stuff.

00:37:40 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I think. I was. I was in middle school and my parents didn't tell me and they picked me up from school early and took me to see New Kids on the Block at the Indian State Fair.

00:37:48 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, it would have lost my mind. I remember that was the first one I watched on tv. I was little, but I watched that one.

00:37:55 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
You didn't see Tiffany in the mall on tv?

00:37:58 - Caitlin Kindred
Okay.

00:37:59 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I said Debbie Gibson in the mall.

00:38:00 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Okay. See?

00:38:04 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, my gosh. Love.

00:38:07 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Mine was Celine Dion pre Titanic.

00:38:10 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, that's a good one. I like it.

00:38:14 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah, I'm a hipster. It's totally fine. I like that I saw her before. She was cool.

00:38:20 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, goodness gracious.

00:38:22 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Anyway, it's time for the gem of the week. I am going to reveal mine through a game.

00:38:28 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, dear.

00:38:29 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
We Are going to play catchphrase. This is a game where I will describe something, and then you will guess what it is that I'm describing.

00:38:36 - Caitlin Kindred
Okay, ready?

00:38:37 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Okay. The Golden Arches.

00:38:40 - Caitlin Kindred
McDonald's.

00:38:41 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Good job. A place where you could visit historic artifacts.

00:38:46 - Caitlin Kindred
Museum.

00:38:47 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Museum. Good job. Okay.

00:38:49 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Okay.

00:38:50 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away.

00:38:53 - Caitlin Kindred
Star Wars.

00:38:55 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Great.

00:38:55 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Star Wars.

00:38:56 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
So here we go. Here's the gem of the week. A small tree.

00:39:02 - Caitlin Kindred
A bush.

00:39:04 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
This is how one of my sixth graders described flower.

00:39:14 - Caitlin Kindred
So funny and weird.

00:39:16 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I texted his mom. I was like, you need to work with your.

00:39:21 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Oh, he's gonna be so disappointed when that flower.

00:39:24 - Caitlin Kindred
Right. And science teacher, if you could just come on over here. Right. The Internet. The Internet does not come from the moon. And here we go.

00:39:35 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah. And here's the deal. The other kids playing this game didn't get it. Then he goes, that you give away at Valentine's Day, which made it harder.

00:39:48 - Caitlin Kindred
Chocolate. Like, what? Like, what do you mean, a valentine? A teddy bear. Like, what else do you. That's so random. Wait, what?

00:39:58 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Bonsai. Like, what valentine are you celebrating?

00:40:01 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Like, this is weird. I'm just picturing one of those little sticks that you buy from the Arbor Day where you get, like, a tree.

00:40:08 - Caitlin Kindred
But it's just, like, branch, plant this and make more trees in your neighborhood. 30 years. Oh, dear. Uncomfortable. Oh, my gosh.

00:40:21 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Right?

00:40:22 - Caitlin Kindred
Okay, mine is. My son finally watched the wizard of Oz for the first time. Now I have trauma around the wizard of Oz because when I was three, when I saw it for the first time, and it's. The monkey scared the ever living daylights out of me. And there's a whole story about that that I won't get into now. But, my son.

00:40:40 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I did wizard of Oz wrong.

00:40:41 - Caitlin Kindred
How'd you. What do you mean? How do you do it wrong?

00:40:43 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I showed it to Abby as the Dark side of Oz before she had seen the movie.

00:40:48 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, no, you can't do it that way. No, no, no.

00:40:51 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
So she actually didn't hear any of the dialogue in the movie. She only heard the Pink Floyd album.

00:40:59 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I did that.

00:40:59 - Caitlin Kindred
That's a different thing.

00:41:00 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah, because you had already seen the movie. I was like, oh, this is so cool. The movie and the album link up. And so we played it, and I was like, oh, wait, you haven't seen the movie.

00:41:07 - Caitlin Kindred
Right. So she won't know. Right.

00:41:09 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
This is not that cool.

00:41:10 - Caitlin Kindred
No.

00:41:10 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Right?

00:41:11 - Caitlin Kindred
No, not at all. So he was. For some reason, he was like, can I just watch it? Like, I've heard it. I just want to see it. So We. We watch it and my uncle used to do an impression of the munchkins and, like, sing the Lollipop Guild song, which was even funnier because he was like 19 and had no hair. So it was like, here's this 19 year old man, like, bald and singing and like doing the kicks and stuff. It's really funny. But he's watching the munchkins and he goes, ew, I hate this. They sound like ugly babies. And then he looks up from his, like from whatever he's doing and he's like, ew. And they look like ugly babies too. Not nice.

00:41:50 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
They're real people.

00:41:51 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Like.

00:41:54 - Caitlin Kindred
But he was just like, they.

00:41:56 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Look like ugly babies. Now, what I love about that is it immediately puts into my head the image of an ugly baby. Y'all, we have all seen one. It might have even been clear your.

00:42:10 - Caitlin Kindred
Own baby, like, when they come out and like, until they're like three months, they kind of look like a pink raisin. So, like, it's not. They have, like. You know what I mean? Like, you love your baby and you think it's precious, but you're looking back at pictures and you're like, oh, you.

00:42:29 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
That was. Something was wrong. Hormones.

00:42:31 - Caitlin Kindred
And I'm sure it's biological, right? You're like, oh, right, right.

00:42:34 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
It's totally on purpose when we're talking about evolution here. Like, our species survived because we did love our right.

00:42:41 - Caitlin Kindred
It's the only reason.

00:42:42 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Right? It's a good thing you're cute.

00:42:44 - Caitlin Kindred
Exactly. But he, I mean, when he said that, I was just like, I. I can't like nothing. I can't take this movie seriously.

00:42:51 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
And also they sound like ugly babies.

00:42:53 - Caitlin Kindred
Sound like ugly babies. Did you know ugly babies have a distinct sound?

00:43:00 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
You know, you sound like a cute, ugly one. Ugly one.

00:43:03 - Caitlin Kindred
So my son has learned to be judgmental real early on. And my apologies to any, but he interacts with in the future because it's coming.

00:43:12 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Okay, so, Megan, when we have a guest on the show.

00:43:16 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah.

00:43:17 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
We like to honor you by giving a gift in your name to your favorite charity. So to whom would you like for us to donate?

00:43:25 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
You guys, that is amazing. I am huge on conservation. Like, ocean.

00:43:33 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I was gonna say I could send you an Arbor Day tree complaint.

00:43:36 - Caitlin Kindred
Didn't have a tree in there.

00:43:39 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
You know why I'm such a tree hugger? Because I had to learn about the freaking hole in the ozone.

00:43:44 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Right.

00:43:45 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I was terrified I would never make it to 48.

00:43:48 - Caitlin Kindred
I feel that because I thought we.

00:43:49 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Were all gonna die.

00:43:50 - Caitlin Kindred
Right?

00:43:51 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Did you have Pump hairspray. I still have because I wouldn't use aerosol cans. So in order for me to get my Bang Wave, I used the pump.

00:44:02 - Caitlin Kindred
Hairspray from Suave in the pink bottle.

00:44:04 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I mean, when my hair dries, it's really big anyway because it's so curly. It's just wet right now. But, yeah, I didn't have to use a lot of hairspray, but I did anyway. But yes, definitely pump, because I didn't want to die from my hair.

00:44:17 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Well, and let me tell you, that hole in the ozone is real. I have been to that part of the world, and I got a sunburn on my hands.

00:44:24 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, ouch.

00:44:26 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I have. I. I was riding bikes in New Zealand, and because, you know, you weigh the whole. The way you hold the handlebars. The top of my hands saw the sun. I didn't put sunscreen on my hands. I've never put sunscreen on my hands. I figured just putting the sunscreen on the rest of my body is enough to, like, put a coat on my hands. I got a sun. I got a sunburn on my hands.

00:44:45 - Caitlin Kindred
Ouch.

00:44:46 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
It's real. Do you have a particular ocean conservation organization? It's okay if you don't.

00:44:53 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I really love. I don't have a specific one, but I love those people that are like, get in the oceans. Like, it makes my heart happy because you talk about New Zealand, but really, I just want to go to. Before it's gone. I just want to go to the Great Barrier and see it.

00:45:06 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah.

00:45:07 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Be in the water, like, underwater in it. I want to be in.

00:45:10 - Caitlin Kindred
Got it. We are on it.

00:45:11 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Love it.

00:45:12 - Caitlin Kindred
We got it.

00:45:13 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
That right there could be a philosophy for life.

00:45:16 - Caitlin Kindred
Just want to be in it.

00:45:17 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Yeah.

00:45:17 - Caitlin Kindred
Love it.

00:45:18 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I do. I do.

00:45:19 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
All right.

00:45:19 - Caitlin Kindred
All right. Well, Megan.

00:45:20 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Well, thank you. We will not send money to the reef.

00:45:23 - Caitlin Kindred
No, we will not.

00:45:23 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
We will send money to people who protect the reef.

00:45:25 - Caitlin Kindred
Yes. There we go.

00:45:27 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
I think that's amazing, guys. Thank you.

00:45:30 - Caitlin Kindred
We are so glad you came. This was really fun for us and also very enlightening, and I'm sure that our listeners are going to love it and we're going to push them all towards Megandevito.com for your services. Find you on Instagram, find you on LinkedIn, and listen to the More Than Anxiety podcast. For more from Megan. Again, just thank you so much for joining us today.

00:45:53 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
This was so fun.

00:45:54 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Thanks. Thank you for having me. It was so much fun.

00:45:57 - Caitlin Kindred
Anytime you want to come back, well, we're happy to have you.

00:46:00 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Hey, anytime. I would love.

00:46:01 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
All right, well, when you are selecting a president who will serve four terms, make good choices, work.

00:46:10 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, and thanks again, Megan. This was amazing.

00:46:13 - Jenny GK, Megan DeVito
Bye.